Questi sono i santi [sacrifici] le cui progenie e sostituzioni [sono offerti e quindi] sono simili a loro: la progenie di uno shelamim [Un'offerta le cui varie parti sono consumate dai suoi proprietari, i Kohanim e il fuoco sull'altare], e quelli scambiati per esso, la loro prole e la loro prole fino alla fine del mondo, ecco che sono come shelamim e hanno bisogno di semichah [mettendo entrambe le mani sulla testa di un animale sacrificale e appoggiandosi con tutta la forza di una volta, un'azione richiesta per molti sacrifici] e libagioni e saluti e [dare] il seno e la gamba [ai sacerdoti]. Il rabbino Eliezer dice: la progenie di uno shelamim non viene offerta come shelamim , [mentre] i saggi dicono: viene offerto. Il rabbino Shimon disse: non erano in disaccordo sulla prole della prole di uno shelamim o sulla prole della prole di un sostituto, che non veniva offerto. Riguardo a cosa non erano d'accordo? [Per quanto riguarda la prole immediata]: il rabbino Eliezer dice: non è offerto, e i Saggi hanno detto: è offerto. Il rabbino Yehoshua e il rabbino Pappis hanno testimoniato riguardo alla prole di uno shelamim che viene offerto come shelamim . Il rabbino Pappis ha dichiarato: Porto testimonianza che abbiamo offerto una mucca come shelamim che abbiamo mangiato il [giorno di] Pesach e che abbiamo mangiato la sua progenie come shelamim durante la vacanza [successiva].
Bartenura on Mishnah Temurah
אלו קדשים. וולד ולדן עד סוף העולם – in the Gemara (Tractate Temurah 17b), the objection is raised, since it taught [in the Mishnah], “their offspring” (i.e., their offspring and the substitute’s offspring), why do I need, “the offspring of their offspring to infinity?” Because our teacher/Tanna heard Rabbi Eliezer who said further on [in this Mishnah] that the offspring of peace-offerings are not offered as peace-offerings, because of this, the Tanna taught, “the offspring of their offspring to infinity,” meaning to say, not only with their offspring do I not agree with you, (since for him, the young has the law of the mother), but even “to infinity,” I do not agree with you (since even then, the young has the law of the mother).
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English Explanation of Mishnah Temurah
Introduction
The third chapter discusses the status of the offspring and the substitutes of sacrifices, and whether or not they have the same exact status as the original/mother animal.
In our mishnah the sages debate the status of the offspring of a shelamim, an offering of well-being.
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Bartenura on Mishnah Temurah
ולד שלמים לא יקרב שלמים – but rather he brings it in to the vaulted chamber (i.e., closing the barn door without food until they died) and it dies [there]. According to the Rabbis, because of a decree, if you had said the offspring of peace-offerings have a remedy, one would come to delay to the mother until she would give birth and raise a herd from the the offspring, and they would come to have shearing and work.
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English Explanation of Mishnah Temurah
The following are sacrifices whose offspring and substitutes are the same as them: The offspring of shelamim and their substitutes, their offspring and the offspring of their offspring, till the end of time, are regarded as shelamim, and they require the laying on of hands, libations and the waving of the breast and shoulder. According to the first opinion, animals whose sanctity is derived from the original shelamim offering are treated exactly like shelamim. This means they require laying on of the hands (semikhah) before they are sacrificed, they require libations (grain, wine and oil) and the breast and shoulder must be waved, as is done with the shelamim itself. This would include the offspring of the original shelamim, the substitute and its offspring, and even any offspring of other offspring of the original or its substitute.
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Bartenura on Mishnah Temurah
לא נחלקו על ולד ולד שלמים – the Sages agree with Rabbi Eliezer that the offspring of offspring of peace-offerings that it should not be offered, for his intention was known from his actions that he needed to raise a herd/flock. But the legal decision is according to the first Tanna/teacher that the offspring of their offspring until eternity, they are like peace-offerings.
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English Explanation of Mishnah Temurah
Rabbi Eliezer says: the offspring of a shelamim must not be offered as a shelamim. The sages say: it is offered. Rabbi Eliezer disagrees and holds that the offspring of a shelamim is not offered as a shelamim. Rather it must be left to die of starvation, as was the case in mishnah 2:2. The other sages again reiterate their opinion from section one.
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Bartenura on Mishnah Temurah
העיד רבי יהושע וכו' – and not according to Rabbi Eliezer. And this testimony is true and [the] Halakha.
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English Explanation of Mishnah Temurah
Rabbi Shimon said: there is no dispute between them as regards the offspring of the offspring of a shelamim or the offspring of the offspring of a substitute that they are not offered. What did they dispute? The offspring [of a shelamim]: Rabbi Eliezer says: it is not offered, But the sages say: it is offered. According to Rabbi Shimon everyone holds that the offspring of the offspring or the offspring of the offspring of the substitute may not be offered as a shelamim. The reason for this prohibition is that if we let such animals be offered as shelamim, people would see that owners delaying bringing their offerings to the Temple and rather holding them long enough for a third generation to be born. The only reason to do so is that the person wants to grow flocks of shelamim, since he can eat most of the meat. This is a problem for two reasons. First of all, the Torah says that one should not delay in bringing one’s vows to the Temple. Second, it is prohibited to shear or work these animals and if he keeps them around for a long time, the chances that he will transgress this commandment go up. To prevent people from holding on to their shelamim offerings, Rabbi Shimon says that we rule that their third generation can no longer be eaten. The sages and Rabbi Eliezer debate only with regard to the original offspring. It is, after all, possible that the shelamim (or its substitute) will have offspring without having a long delay between its sanctification and its being brought to the Temple. Therefore, the sages say that this offspring can be offered.
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Bartenura on Mishnah Temurah
ואכלנו ולדה שלמים בחג – it is stated on the holiday of Shavuot, for if he would wait and look forward to the holiday of Sukkot (which is the normal meaning of the word, חג when used without a modifier), it is found that he would violate a positive commandment (Deuteronomy 12:5-6): “there you are to go, and here you are to bring [your burnt offerings and other sacrifices],” that implies that on the first Festival that you go there, bring all of the votive offerings that are upon you. However, regarding the negative commandment (Deuteronomy 23:22): “[When you make a vow to the LORD your God,] do not put off fulfilling it, [for the LORD your God will require it of you, and you will have incurrent guilt],” you do not violate until there has passed over you three Festivals.
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English Explanation of Mishnah Temurah
Rabbi Shimon said: there is no dispute between them as regards the offspring of the offspring of a shelamim or the offspring of the offspring of a substitute that they are not offered. What did they dispute? The offspring [of a shelamim]: Rabbi Eliezer says: it is not offered, But the sages say: it is offered. Rabbi Joshua and Rabbi Papias testify that they have a tradition that supports the sages in their dispute with Rabbi Eliezer. Furthermore, Rabbi Papias testifies that they did eat the offspring of a shelamim. This testimony is found also in tractate Eduyot (testimonies) 7:6. There the testimony is explicitly brought as a refutation of Rabbi Eliezer.
